MIDAS RollCage

[bjw970s]

Hi,

After a period of inactivty where my poor MIDAS Bronze has sat waiting for attention, and was even up for sale, I have decided to carry on with my project to covert the car to a competition vehicle with the aim of having it specc'd to race and stage rally.

I have a rather nice Race engine to put in it which came out of my ironically expired MG Metro Race car so it is a shame not to use it!!

What I need however is a Rollcage. I can get one of the bespoke suppliers to make me one but I am sure I saw a caged MIDAS at a Kit Car show. If I can find the manufacturer it would help as they may have a pattern on file.

Any pointers or pictures would be most welcome.

Thanks

Brian

[rocketron]

Dear bjw, this is a project that would create much interest. Ideally, a bespoke cage/ROPS manufacturer is best, someone who has working knowledge of what is required by the MSA, say Custom Cages or Rollcentre. Basically, the MSA do not accept "home made" cages: their design needs to be "stressed out" and this costs money. However, I do remember several MINI MARCOS racing and fitted with cages. It would not cost very much at all to adapt for MIDAS fitment. If the above mentioned manufacturers made a cage for a MINI MARCOS, all the design work is already done, and the cage would come with the required "Roll Cage Certificate": this is the bit that takes away all the worries etc for the MSA. Cages are made from CDS or T45 steel tube only, the latter being much stronger with less weight, which is what we all need!
Another point, MSA regs require a 3mm reinforcing plate fitted below each "mounting foot".

Some years ago, Mike Bastiana, from Hyde, Cheshire area, hillclimbed a rapid MINI MARCOS, rocker-arm suspension with horizontal coil-over units, mounted behind the lcb and below the carbs. A phone call might be of interest, Mike and his Dad, Eddie, did a lot of good development on the car, are a font of knowledge and good for a chat. His car would have had a cage fitted.

The only real probs I experienced with my Mk1 and didn't with my rally prepped 1071 S, having driven many high speed miles in the forest, (I live right on one of the old RAC Rally stages) was the rear end did tend to roll more and that visibility to the low near side was not as good. The Midas was not lighter than the Mini, but certainly stiffer and took the punishment as good. The low near side visibility was the biggest problem for me (I know you should look further than your nose, Blah-Blah, but trust me, it happens!)

A good A-series still cuts it on the rally scene, even though a many 1400cc cars pump out approx 170bhp.

Great project, Regards, Ron.

[bjw970s]

Hi Ron,

I also run a 970s Cooper FIA Historic Rally car so I share your enthusiasm.

Roll Centre have a MARCOS Cage listed (I have spoken to them in the past) but no MIDAS one. Custom Cages are good value and I reckon you could get a cage done for around £900 - An 'off-plan' one would cost about half hence my interest. I may try and get some measurements of the MARCOS cage and compare.

I would like to 'tie' into into the rear beam mountings and possibly other places. and I have studied with interest an Elan cage in my friends FIA spec Elan which has very large spreader plates in the floor in front of the driver. I am intrigued as to the rules re spreader plates as I am keen to establish whether a bonded metal plate in a fibreglass shell (would put a plate underneath as well) would be the same as a welded plate in a standard tin shell - I will ask the MSA.

I suspect I will try and create a full 'cage' which the driver and passenger sit in, even to the extent of fixing the seats to it via cross members.

I did have a good look at the factory MARCOS at a Prescott Hillclimb this year where the chap running it very kindly let me sit in it. It had a 'standard' race seat and the headroom was appalling! the issue therefore will be head room and I have been in touch with Alternative cars with a view to dropping the passenger and drivers floors to increase headroom (if you look at the MARCOS drawings for their competition spec shell they have sloped theirs). My experience with my Racing LOCOBLADE has meant I have been able to explore the options for composite seats and the recline you can get etc. this of course may lead to a different peddle box - where does it end!

If I get it moving forward, I will start to post details on the forum.

Regards

Brian

[manifold]

Mike Bastianos car isnt that far from my house. About 3 miles away.....complete with KAD engine. Its at a place called minitechnique.

With floor mounted composite seats you will get more headroom. In the Gold Coupe (which admittedly has more headroom) i had to raise my Tillet seats up 2 or 3 inches to see over the dash.

[bjw970s]

HI Manifold,

I have a Tillet in my LOCOBLADE and after messing around with a number of options, they are pricier but worth it. Only issue is FIA approved seats for some rallying -may have to stay with Racing/Sprints.

Don't suppose you could pop down and do some basic measurements......

[manifold]

Hi Brian,

You tell me the measurements you want and I will di it for you. Mine are the Tillet B5's.

http://www.tillett.co.uk/car-racing-seat.asp

[bjw970s]

Hi Brian,

You tell me the measurements you want and I will di it for you. Mine are the Tillet B5's.

[url][/url]

Apologies I meant on the Bastiani MARCOS Cage - my mistake! I will probably contact Rollcentre for the dimensions but if you know the MARCOS and it has a cage and you can get the basic height/width/fixing point location dimensions that would be a help - I don't know how similar in profile inside they are despite having sat in both MIDAS and MARCOS.

I have B4 in mine - like the B5's though!

Brian

[manifold]

Ah, you mean the Marcos.

OK the best person to speak to there is the guys at Minitechnique. http://www.minitech.co.uk/

[rocketron]

As a scrutineer of some 30 years, a bonded 3mm plate I would accept but not a rear beam instead of. Both together is ok'
A Midas seat reclines more than a Mini, for headroom, so its close to the main hoop, which may be moved rearwards to allow fitting which may make backstay angle less "than 30* with the vertical". The backstay mounting will have to be further back, say wheel arch? You can still triangulate back to the rear beam. A rollcage is only meant to hold an inverted car without its roof collapsing.
Door bars are mandatory for stage rallies: "positioned as high as possible for max protection and not more than one half of the door aperture when measured from aperture base". A Midas door aperture is 28ins, so available exit dimension is 14ins min. to perhaps 20ins max. Undoing a full harness belt, climbing up from a "huggable" seat and diving out over the doorbar in 15secs? Possible perhaps: though danger of fire gives great impetus!
Should you study a FIA spec car, make sure that what you see agrees with current MSA regs; the FIA car may have been built to FIA regs of days gone by and things have changed. Don't accept that FIA spec is the same as MSA regs: they may not be.
All rally cars with Competition logbooks issued after 1/1/09 must be fitted with FIA seats with a homologation no CS.xxx.xx. Are Tillet B5 this specced?
Also, "have a protective bulkhead of non-flameable material between the engine and driver/passenger compartment". How do you prove that?

I have a letter from Harold Dermott when I enquired about a competiton bodyshell. He replied it was tough enough as was!

Though a great project and one I shall follow with great interest. Full-on stage rallying gives a bodyshell one hellova hammering: it would be nice to know how a Midas gets on.
Best regards,Ron

[bjw970s]

As a scrutineer of some 30 years, a bonded 3mm plate I would accept but not a rear beam instead of. Both together is ok'
A Midas seat reclines more than a Mini, for headroom, so its close to the main hoop, which may be moved rearwards to allow fitting which may make backstay angle less "than 30* with the vertical". The backstay mounting will have to be further back, say wheel arch? You can still triangulate back to the rear beam. A rollcage is only meant to hold an inverted car without its roof collapsing.
Door bars are mandatory for stage rallies: "positioned as high as possible for max protection and not more than one half of the door aperture when measured from aperture base". A Midas door aperture is 28ins, so available exit dimension is 14ins min. to perhaps 20ins max. Undoing a full harness belt, climbing up from a "huggable" seat and diving out over the doorbar in 15secs? Possible perhaps: though danger of fire gives great impetus!
Should you study a FIA spec car, make sure that what you see agrees with current MSA regs; the FIA car may have been built to FIA regs of days gone by and things have changed. Don't accept that FIA spec is the same as MSA regs: they may not be.
All rally cars with Competition logbooks issued after 1/1/09 must be fitted with FIA seats with a homologation no CS.xxx.xx. Are Tillet B5 this specced?
Also, "have a protective bulkhead of non-flameable material between the engine and driver/passenger compartment". How do you prove that?

I have a letter from Harold Dermott when I enquired about a competiton bodyshell. He replied it was tough enough as was!

Though a great project and one I shall follow with great interest. Full-on stage rallying gives a bodyshell one hellova hammering: it would be nice to know how a Midas gets on.
Best regards,Ron

Hi Ron,

The rallying will be the hard part, purely on seat spec (I have spare sump guards, uprated the suspension etc). When I origonally started looking at the MIDAS for competition, I got out the seats I had for my Mini (FIA COBRA's) and tried to fit them in. I was not content that they would fit in and provide the angle required and height to spare to accomodate the crew within the 'safety cell' of the cage. When I sat in the ex-factory marcos, it had a 'standard' cobra/corbeau type seat, which, if I had a crash helmet on, would have meant me touching the roof! So I am still head scratching my head on that one (no pun intended). I will probably do some measurements and go to autosport 2010 and compare seat sizes. Tillets are not FIA approved unfortunately. It may be that I will stick to racing it where you need FIA belts but not seats; we shall see. An additional point would be that I would not gravel rally it. My wife co-drivers in the british historic championship in a mini and it destroys small cars - so much so that they have now allowed under body protection. There is a honda engine'd cox GTM competing in clubman stage rallying which I want to get a closer look at as well.....

I am a member of an active motorsports club (The RAFMSA) and we have an array of experience to draw upon and car specs. My Mini is MSA log booked and is current as well. As for getting out? I was in a crash at SIlverstone 2 weeks ago in my LOCOST which has a full cage, a tillet seat, very narrow cockpit and a cumbersome entry when getting in under normal circumstances - trust me I was out in less than 15 secs after meeting the wall which included removing the steering wheel and killing the power!

Regards

Brian